date

18 Dec r 1806 Scotch Reform /Evidence
18 Dec r 1806

Scotch Reform /Evidence/

To L d Grenville

'. People or Lawyers

Non-Lawyer. Indeed? Well, to be sure, that's what i should be very glad to hear, so it be but true.

Lawyer. You love liberty, do n't you? I mean English liberty, practical, constitutional liberty that which distinguishes us so much to our advantage from all other countries.

Non-Lawyer - Do n't doubt it, my friend but[/] what of that?

Lawyer. English liberties you acknowledge, are all founded upon law?

Non-Lawyer - Why, I suppose they may be: at least in a great measure: but what is all this to lead to? But [...?]you were for [...?] /charging/ me of speculation: and this about liberty and law not very new indeed - but is it not rather speculative but a little upon the speculative order, is not it? We shall come to Terra Firma, I hope, at last?

Lawyer. Have patience. The law is the support of English liberties: the lawyers are the guardians, the supporters of the law: unless they were respectable, they could not support it: and unless they are rich, they would not be respectable.

For a societies[?], if that was what you meant to treat[?] are a very respectable one, I must confess you have made of it. Yet still some how or other, and with all your [...?] to theory, we are not got down as yet much lower than the clouds. Are we to land on /come down/ Terra Firma at last; any good from[?], accept of any assistance.
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  • Title: [18 Dec r 1806 Scotch Reform /Evidence]
    Description: 18 Dec r 1806

    Scotch Reform /Evidence/

    To L d Grenville

    '. People or Lawyers

    Lawyer. Why no; perhaps not:- but do you consider how much money that would cost?

    Non Lawyer. Consider? Oh yes: and so did the legislation [...?] that instance, when they gave all that money instead for fees. But when you talk of money /in [...?] of money/, pray how much more is ,6,000 a year where taken from people of all descriptions, afflicted and unafflicted together, then[/] taken from the afflicted why? But I will not /Not that I mean to/ press you for an answer now - there is a man who has so[?] written a pamphlet upon the subject - to his pamphlet I will beg you to look /in his pamphlet you may read more about this to refer you/ if you think it worth your while. +Protest against Law [...?].

    Lawyer - Well: we[?] shan't differ much about this: but then there remains the professional branch's /in number/ 50 times as many, not to say a hundred, or a thousand: would you have[?] there[?] too have [...?]?

    Non-Lawyer. Yes: when they can show equal cause for it: But pray what is it they are Guardians of? of their own many, yes, whence they have got it: of one many[?], yes, after it is become made[?] theirs, not before I believe[?]: and how stands the matter with regard to laws and liberties? When liberty /Liberty/ is in question, /if/ when you have no longer to defend it /law it is because/, you have another to attack it /law/: late[?] among both lawyers, liberty /Liberty/ is at least as well off as if she had nothing[?] [...?] saving so much money /not to speak of the money saved, with the et ceteras/.

    Lawyer -  Add necessity of respectabilty in professional [...?] - English Lawyers more so than any other

    Non-Lawyer - [...?] part of [...?] English Lawyers are to English Non-Lawyers as [...?] Lawyers to [...?] non-Lawyers and if is necessary there will always be more [...?] than [...?].
  • Title: [18 Dec r 1806 Scotch Reform /Evidence]
    Description: 18 Dec r 1806

    Scotch Reform /Evidence/

    To L d Grenville

    Lawyer. Oh yes, I see - I see /I thought how it was/: you are for Parliamentary Reform, are n't you?

    Non Lawyer. no: nor against it neither: I never thought anything about the matter: and will you have for the present occasion at least with[?] which it has nothing at all to do. I should be glad to save myself the trouble. If you have any thing to say about Parliamentary Reform, there's Major Cartwright made for you. That is[?] the way with you Lawyers, in that with every [...?], who he feels he has a bad [...?]. We had agreed to talk about one theory, and[/] in a term[?], you are for flying off to another. The question we /you and I/ are upon is - not who shall govern us?, but to whose benefit we shall be governed?

    Lawyer - Well come, as you and I are friends - and you seem not inclined to stretch for wild and speculative theories, I will tell you /let you see/ fairly and honestly how the argument stands on our side: you well see that there are deeper reasons /is deeper reason/ for it than you would have imagined. To be sure, as there are so many more of you than there are of us, it is your interest that ought to have the preference : we don't dispute that: but it is for your interest that things should be as they are at present.

    Non-Lawyer. Indeed? how[/] enough[?] I should have thought it. Not[?] so it is for our likes and as a proof /[...?]/ of the regard you have for us /love you bear to us/, that you gratify /favour but[?]/ us with so much more delay, vexation and expence have you need or would subject [...?] be otherwise?

    Lawyer. not exactly so. You are speaking of motives: make what you will of them, they are nothing to the purpose. What you are concerned in, are the effects: and that was what I spoke of. It is for our[/] sake if you please /if so you choose to have it/, that we ease you of all this [...?]: it is for the sake of the many we get that in saddled you with the whole quantity of all this extra delay vexation, and expence: but be it what it may, it is not for you to grudge it: since be it what it may you are all the better for it.
  • Title: [18 Dec r 1806 Scotch Reform /Evidence]
    Description: 18 Dec r 1806

    Scotch Reform /Evidence/

    To L d Grenville

    '. People & Lawyers

    To [...?] the matter [...?], and [...?...?], I will venture to submitt to your Lordship the substance[?] - not of a speech that might have been spoken, but forasmuch as to this suit /cause/ as to others there are two sides of a dialogue that might have been held.

    After the usual introduction, consisting of compliments, and observations of the weather, and the appropriateness of the place (an appropriate place such as Westminster Hall or for greater tranquillity the Villa of a Lord Chancellor or a Lord Chief Justice being chosen of course) with a few[?] words to open the occasion the dialogue went on as follows.

    Non-Lawyer - Delay, and vexation, the more there is of it, to us suitors I mean, the more expence: and the more expence to us suitors, the more profit to you lawyers. We are as much the King's subjects as you are: there are more of us than there are of you more than a hundred I hope for /to/ [...?]. In so far as our interests clash, and alas! there is a [...?] a point (I fear) in which they do not clash, it is on the ground that we[?] choose[?] a /the/ preference. I confess honestly I know of no other: yet with submission, I should hope this one may be deemed sufficient.

    Lawyer. Mighty injuries[?] indeed! I mean in speculation - you understand me in theory:- and so you would have the affairs of mankind carried upon such fine-spun[/] theories?

    Non-Lawyer - theory? I don't understand theories: not I. good or bad (my conception of the matter I mean) it was from Cocker's Arithmetic that I took it. A hundred more are a hundred times as many as one man: are n't theory? You may call this theory if you please, is it the less true?