date

24[?] Jan y 1810 Parl y Reform
24[?] Jan y 1810

Parl y Reform

Ch.10 Seat bought

'.3 Seller's mind

2

But to the present purpose of the present question " limit or continuation" as applied to mind - viz. to the mind of the seller of the seat, which in the present section is the subject of inquiry, or to that of the buyer of the seat which in the last section was the subject of inquiry, all these are distinctions without difference. So long as the system exists, no mischief other than that of the system itself results in any individual inclusion from the acting[?] under it. Approving the system, or what comes to the same thing, disapproving the /all/ idea of reforming /a reform in/ it no man can in his own mind believe that he does wrong in acting under it. As little can /could/ he although ever so disapproving the system, his wishes /desire/ to see it reformed were ever so strenuous and sincere. For supposing it to be reformed, how is it to be reformed but by the aid of hands already in the House? and how are any hands to find their way into the House but by such ways as give admission to it?

The buyer it has been shewn above does no wrong, thinks no wrong, in buying the seat: the seller, doing no wrong, how is it that he can think himself to be doing wrong, in selling it.
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    Seat-buying - Buyers & Seller mind distinguish between Purchase of /from/ Electors, & d o from a Patron, selling his influence over them.

    '.6. Mischief to the seller's mind {of the seller} {of the seat.}

    Of the sort of person by whom this part in the transaction is borne, the situation admitts of two modifications. It may be that the situation of the Elector, viz that of the person /the situation occupied by the several persons/ by whose votes the Member is placed in his seat, as it may be that of patron of the seat, as above, by whose influence over the Electors the business /purpose/ is effected.

    If it be the situation of an Elector it belongs not to the present head: it will be spoken to a little further on.

    If it be that of a single person /individual/, who, in the character of patron of the seat, takes upon him to dispose of the benefit in the shape of power which no matter how, he finds to be at his disposal /command/, and to receive in return for it, and to his own use a benefit in the shape of money, the condition of his mind /his condition in respect of the [...?] made[?]/ is the same with that of the patron in the 2 d case, the patron by whom the seat is given /bestowed gratis/, nearly[?], to wit with no other differences than that which is constituted by the circumstance of his receiving in a pecuniary shape in return for such his service, a retribution which in that other case he either does not receive in any shape, or which, if in any he receives in some non-pecuniary shape.
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    The objections to the purchase and sale of seats - the "traffic" in seats as it has been called - the venality of seats these /this/ objections so far I mean as they apply to this mode of coming into Parliament in contradistinction to the /any/ mode of coming in by court interest /favour/ ministerial interest /favour/ or individual favour - in contradistinction in a word to any other mode than that of free election for a county or a populous and perfectly open borough - is founded on confusion of ideas and misapplication of words.

    1. The term venality being without impropriety applicable to the seat, is by a confusion of ideas improperly applied to the man who sits in it.

    In fact, on occasion of this transaction neither to this man nor to any other does /is/ the term venality applicable with any sort of reason.

    But if it were, it is to the seller of the seat and not to the purchaser /buyer/ that it would be applicable. To the seller if to either it would be applicable: for though he does not sell himself outright, that is whatever services of whatever kind it may at whatever time be /lie/ in his favour to render, what he does sell is the /a/ service, viz. the service which he renders to the buyer in placing him in the seat.
  • Title: [21 Dec r 1809 Parl y Reform]
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    {'.3. Mischief to the mind of the individual corrupted /seller of the seat/}

    { This not first in the section

    But he thinks he is doing wrong: and thinking it, he does do wrong: if against nothing else, he sins against his own conscience: he stands self-convicted of universal [...?]

    No: he does not think any such thing: why should he?

    Is any specific mischief likely to be the result of what he does? Looking out for any such mischief, he finds none. /In none would he put himself upon the [...?] [...?]/}

    Is it that in a transaction of this sort there is any thing that by public opinion is condemned as wrong? /reprobated?/ is it so thought of by the highest authority? by great characters in high situations? by those who in respect of height of situation at least, are the most competent judges?

    No - that it is not: of that he has the best evidence viz. their own conduct if in this instance conduct is to be received as interpreter of thought.

    If in this practice there were any thing that in their opinion were wrong, it rests with them to put a stop to it /to render it impossible/ altogether. Nothing could be easier to them than to render it impossible. If while the duration of the seat were so short as not to be worth paying for votes were given in such manner, viz by ballot, that supposing a man to have received a bribe /the money/ it could not be known whether he had earnt it, under either of these circumstances much more than under both, votes never would be bought. /If the number of the voters were in each electoral district too great for the greatest quantity of the matter of corruption that could be bought./ To whom is there that this can be a secret?

    Reason or authority: by one or other of these two guides every understanding so far as conduct depends upon cool understanding is on every occasion determined. Ask /Refer the matter to/ Reason there is no harm in the practice: refer it to authority, there is still no harm in it. For to what higher authority can a question be referred, than to that of King, Lords and Commons.