132-223.xml

Title: [1819 March 29 To Erskine E]

Description: 1819 March 29

To Erskine

E. against Reform

{Whigs against Reform}

5

4

6

Now my Lord as to my part in taking my chance for Lord Grey’s forgiveness for entertaining in reality this one of the opinions which when M r Grey he professed – as to my part I am much inclined to be of opinion, that “this House will never reform itself, or destroy the corruption by which it is upheld, by any other means than those of the resolutions of the people acting upon the prudence of the House, and that point they could only accomplish by meeting in bodies as recommended by the Minister (Pitt) in 1782.” [*]

For my own part notwithstanding your Lordships declared aversion to rash ignorant and mischievous men p 30 and to any such spirit as an inflamed and ungovernable spirit, I have no doubt of your Lordships being in one condition – in perfect readiness to concur in the advice given by M r Pitt in 1782 when Minister as above and by the said M r Grey in 1794 when in opposition as above, so far as regards the meeting in bodies. This condition is that there shall be no noise made.

I remember hearing or reading, I forget where, of a man who had invented he said /an invention that had been hit upon/ a sort of gunpowder that did its business without making a noise. When this species of gunpowder is fairly come into use, I make no doubt that Your Lordship who is the same man at all times, and Lord Grey, who without being able to tell why is so much wiser than he was in 1794, and at all times equally honest and sincere, will be ready to concurr in so “acting upon the prudence of the House”, as to engage it to reform itself,” and “destroy the corruption by which it is upheld.

[*] A o 1794

132-263.xml

Title: [1819 June 15 + §. 2 A To Erskine]

Description: 1819 June 15 + §. 2 A

To Erskine

Lett. 7. Whigs Anti Reformists

§. 2. Position I Desire impossible.

1

§. 2. Position 1. The desire impossible.

{§. 2. Position 1. On the part of {a set of} men in the situation in question any such desire as that of witnessing a change of the sort in question, is in the nature of the case morally impossible.}

For fear /exclusion/ of misconception I will here explain what on this occasion I mean by the word free, and why it seemed necessary that this or some equivalent term should be employed.

By Pitt the second before he was in office to wit A o 1780 /1782/ an opinion was /I find/ expressed that no considerable reform in any shape would ever be produced without resolutions in favour of reform signified by the people meeting in bodies and thus acting upon the prudence of the House: + and the years after to wit A o 1794 by Earl then M r Grey, this opinion of Pitts I find referred to and adopted . In this way {it seems to me also that a desire to the effect in question on the part of Honourable House might be created, and in fine brought into effect. But {it seems to me that to such a desire the quality indicated by the word free could not /it should seem/ with propriety be considered as applicable /attributable/.

For the grounds of this position I know not what better I can do than to take my chance for pointing your Lordships attention to the correspondent part of my abovementioned work on parliamentary reform (§.18. pp. CCXCIX to CCCXXIII.). Your Lordship will hardly, I think, pronounce it irrelevant: and though whatever claim Your Lordships clients can have to the confidence they are never tired of calling for depends upon the insufficiency /inconclusiveness/ of the proof there brought to view though their attention to it has been called to it in Parliamentary, I have never yet been able to hear of any endeavour made in or out of Parliament to contest /dispute/ it.

132-245.xml

Title: [1819 May 12 + II Lett 6. Whigs Anti]

Description: 1819 May 12 + II

Lett 6. Whigs Anti-Reform

20

1. Who[?] trust[?] Parl[?] […?]

2. Pennsylvania[?] Cl.[?]

These are the fears with which they ply the […?] part of the people, as bad servants in families ply the children of the family with tales of ghosts

From first to last what /the argument/ they rely upon as towards all those who are not partakers in the sinister interest is the supposed or pretended danger: danger of confusion and anarchy and so forth.

Now what /that which/ to all of them is most perfectly known can not at any time be otherwise than full in their view is the proof afforded by experience and observation of their own – experience of matter of fact the most extreme and most notorious /known to them is – that there is no such danger/.

1 First there is the case of Ireland. Of Ireland in 1782 the time of the emancipation of the Irish Parliament /Legislature/ from the intention[?] in the hands of the English Ministry /tyranny of the English Administration/. Fourscore thousand Irish Volunteers with arms in their /all armed and trained/ – That was the force /instrument/ that did /accomplished/ the work. Here was the exemplification of the of /state of things so warmly recommended to/ Earl Grey then M r Grey. “The resolutions of the people acting upon the prudence of the House, – and that point they could only accomplish” (continued he) by meeting in bodies as recommended by the Minister (Pitt) in 1782. by Pitt who A o 1794 being Minister tried to put men to death in force of law lest they should engage others to pursue his own recommendation and meet in bodies.

This is what twelve years after it was done viz A o 1794 was thus recommended by this same Earl Grey. Well might he thus recommend it. The point which it aimed at was accomplished[?]. Well and what was the price paid for the accomplishment /benefit/? Was it confusion? was it anarchy? On the contrary a state of peace and quiet and good order till then unknown: not known till then: the opposite state but too well known since: from the cessation of those meetings down to the day on which I write.

And the country where this effect so full in the teeth of the present pretended fear took place – what was it? Was it a country in which the public mind has more instinction in it than in Britain? No, unless it be in the United American States, no such country is to be found! Where then was it? Even in Ireland, a country which in this respect is continually spoken of as being the very antipodes of England.