1819 March 14

Letter 7. Whigs Anti Reformists

{Erskines Reform} I. or III Shape

Earl Grey

8

2

9

But what Your Lordship is and then was, Lord Grey for the declaration of whose head some of the choicest of your Lordships laudatory /laudative/ flowers are allotted, Lord Grey who deserves the highest praise says Your Lordship for this honest, manly and useful declaration (p. 14) is and then was likewise. Well then his Lordships disposition towards this same reform what is it now? for as it is now so was it then likewise. What then is it now? It is that which I speak of his Newcastle Speech + leads him at the commencement to give us to understand that he has no great objection to it provided it amounts to nothing and at the end of that same speech that it is not in the nature of it to be of any use. ||

Well then if forasmuch as /supposing/ of this “honest, manly and useful declaration” – manly and useful are epithets which I join /concurr/ most sincerely in bestowing upon it reform in practice was not the object, what then it may be asked was the object? The object? Why my Lord it was the everlasting object – the driving the Ministry out and stepping into their places. The great body seated as it was impossible that any considerable number of them should concurr in aiming at the professed object – at any one good object – at the pretended /professed/ end or at the pretended /professed/ means – at stemming the tide /at lessening the flux/ of waste and corruption or at giving to the great body of the people the real choice of these agents whom they were said to choose nothing was more natural nothing more thoroughly to be depended upon – than that they should

disagree

|| ☞ Look to the words
Similar Items
  • Title: [1819 June 16 To Erskine Lett]
    Description: 1819 June 16

    To Erskine

    Lett. 7. Whigs Anti Reformists

    §.3. 2. No desire testified

    4

    Well but I think I hear your Lordship saying – (for it is my humble endeavour to pick up and present to Your Lordship that plain sense which Your Lordships eloquence disdains throughout to stoop for) – Well but, (at any rate says /asks/ somebody) what say you to “that noble speech of M r Grey in which, throwing back in the teeth of the apostate Pitt his own declarations, he brings to view in the character of the only means by which the sort of change in question could or can ever be effected resolutions of the people meeting in bodies and to the purpose in question acting upon the prudence of the House. Say if you please that these are not now the sentiments of Earl Grey – it is not the less true that they were then declared to be the sentiments of M r Grey: if in so saying his patriot zeal did really outstep a little the line of moderation and prudence it lies not upon you to object to hear this generous transgression proper or improper this at any rate is what he said, and you even you, is it possible for you to say, how it was possible for him in the zeal of his /ardour of his/ exertions in favour of reform to go further or to say more?”

    No, /Very likely not/ my Lord: nothing at any rate occurrs to be at present as promising to be on that occasion more highly conducive to the there professed object: and yet, to speak the truth and the whole truth at once /to come out with the plain truth at once/, it does not appear to me in any degree probable that in the shape of the Grey of that time this magnanimous /Whig/ leader of the Whigs had any more desire of reform in any shape than what he professes at present: and therefore leaving his sincerity to take care of herself, so far as constancy /regard/ is in question I do myself the honour thus to prove to shew myself his Lordships unbidden /uncalled/ as well as gratuitous advocate.
  • Title: [1819 March 29 To Erskine E]
    Description: 1819 March 29

    To Erskine

    E. against Reform

    {Whigs against Reform}

    5

    4

    6

    Now my Lord as to my part in taking my chance for Lord Grey’s forgiveness for entertaining in reality this one of the opinions which when M r Grey he professed – as to my part I am much inclined to be of opinion, that “this House will never reform itself, or destroy the corruption by which it is upheld, by any other means than those of the resolutions of the people acting upon the prudence of the House, and that point they could only accomplish by meeting in bodies as recommended by the Minister (Pitt) in 1782.” [*]

    For my own part notwithstanding your Lordships declared aversion to rash ignorant and mischievous men p 30 and to any such spirit as an inflamed and ungovernable spirit, I have no doubt of your Lordships being in one condition – in perfect readiness to concur in the advice given by M r Pitt in 1782 when Minister as above and by the said M r Grey in 1794 when in opposition as above, so far as regards the meeting in bodies. This condition is that there shall be no noise made.

    I remember hearing or reading, I forget where, of a man who had invented he said /an invention that had been hit upon/ a sort of gunpowder that did its business without making a noise. When this species of gunpowder is fairly come into use, I make no doubt that Your Lordship who is the same man at all times, and Lord Grey, who without being able to tell why is so much wiser than he was in 1794, and at all times equally honest and sincere, will be ready to concurr in so “acting upon the prudence of the House”, as to engage it to reform itself,” and “destroy the corruption by which it is upheld.

    [*] A o 1794
  • Title: [1818 Sept. 10. 4 14]
    Description: 1818 Sept. 10.

    4

    14

    Instructive and impressive as it was – the Reformists /cause of reform/ by this expense what did they /it/ gain? perhaps nothing. In the sale of seats said the anti reformists of all parties /classes/ of both parties – in the sale of seats, according to your own averments /so yourselves maintain/ consists the mischief: well this sale, and with it the mischief, we will prevent. The offence that has been committed we will not punish: for it would be /were/ too much to expect that where all are guilty all should join in the punishment of one who has been no more guilty than they, and in whose case to distinguish it from theirs there is nothing but the misfortune of having by a rare accid /and untoward/ accident been brought to light. But though we will not concurr in producing the evil of punishment what we will concurr in is the producing of all the good that can ever be produced by punishment. This good is the prevention of the offence. In the production of this good (when the time came continued they when the time came) we have actually concurred. The offence is prevented: and this is the Act /law/ by which it has been prevented.

    Not only by the real Reformists at large, but by the sham /pretended/ Reformist by whom in its original state the Bill was brought in protestation was made, that by the Bill in the state in which it had been converted into a law nothing effectual was done. But though nothing useful or effectual was done still however there was a something done: the dispute turned upon the quantum: and the least that /which by any body/ could be allowed to the Tory Ministry was that in the declaration that a traffic of this sort ought not to be carried on or permitted, they themselves had joined.