date

28 June 1802 46 N. S. Wales
28 June 1802 46

N. S. Wales

3

6. Conduct 3.Convict Let. continued.

Be this as it may — [spite of the difficulty which an idea, in any degree divergent from the routine of common place, experiences in its endeavours is doomed to experience to place itself in the neighborhood of a declaiming tongue] so it is happens that by one means or another, in the year 1794 if not before the difference between interested management, and trust management was not altogether a secret to M r Pitt. Not only so but at that time (how long before I can not pretend take upon me to say) it was sufficiently understood that a law authorizing administration to conduct a system and in particular a system of this confinement and labour for criminals — in the way on the principle of trust management as under the original Penitentiary plan was no sufficient authority for committing it to interested management as under the proposed new Penitentiary plan: but unless the distance between interested management (as under the original Transportation plan) and trust management (as under this new Transportation plan) be greater than the distance between trust management and interested management — it should seem that, if the alledged necessity or propriety, of obtaining the of resorting to Parliament for its express sanction sanction of Parliament before possession was taken of the land, was any thing better than a pretence, that therefore in that case from and after the time at least when the difference between the two species of management was discovered — powers given by Parliament as under the Old Transportation laws to provide for convicts by under on the interested management ought not, without express authority from Parliament — use by any such trick as the intervention of a sham-contract, to have been applied to the providing for the same description of persons make upon the diametrically opposite system plan — under mere trust management without interest.
Similar Items
  • Title: [28 June 1802 (E2) N. S. Wales]
    Description: 28 June 1802 (E2)

    N. S. Wales

    Covered from head to foot as the whole system is with the marks of incapacity and ignorance, it is not in the power of M r Pitt upon the present occasion to take refuge in any such plea. than any more than in any other subterfuge Howsoever it might have been in 1786 and 1787, in 1794 at least the difference between trust management and interested management, [+] nor the performer due to the latter upon every ground of solid reason, were altogether unperceived by M r Pitt. So great strong and so substantial was the difference understood to be nor pretended to be understood to be, that it was understood or pretended to be understood that a law founding a system of management (in the case in question the management of Convicts in a Penitentiary establishment here at home) on the one principle could not without a virtual violation of the respect due to the authority of Parliament be made use of and applied to a system of management for the same establishment grounded in the other principle. Under the original Act, the Act of 1779 the Penitentiary system

    Lord Spencer (whose ground had been thus valued and by a

    Lord Spencer came out on and from this have the law that was binding upon other men was no longer binding upon Lord Spencer

    stood upon the principle of purely uninterested trust — management system thus grounded had received the sanction of Parliament, and, under that sanction, land, as to every thing but actual payment of the money had been purchased for it. When I came forward with that offer which after years taken for consideration was accepted

    Give me that land (said I) and I will do the business so much cheaper and better as my plan shows. This may First to be done was, to save further loss of time. This you have power to do at any time: at least to take possession of the land. [+] [+] at least with the concurrence of the manager appointed under the former system, a concurrence which I have reason to expect will not be issued: If, for the purpose of giving a compleat sanction to the business you look upon it as necessary to apply to Parliament, this necessity, need be no obstacle. If (what is
  • Title: [28 June 1802 43 N. S. Wales In the]
    Description: 28 June 1802 43 N. S. Wales

    In the fiction thus employd (if it be employd, and

    unless it be not so much as the colour of law can be

    given in the whole management) In the fiction thus employd, we

    see another and very material fraud put by [++]

    [++] the Pitt and Administration

    the M r Pitt Administration of

    that day upon Parliament. I have already

    represented to Your Lordship how wide the difference is between

    transportation bondage on the old footing, and transportation bondage

    under this new footing: how completely different the situation of

    both parties concerned — the Council and the public here

    at home is in the two cases: how natural an effect reformation is in the

    former case — how near to impossible in the latter. Nothing can be

    more widely different in principle and effect, than

    interested management and trust - management. In the case of

    interested management the manager has the

    strongest idea sort of personal

    interest possible in the success of the management: in the case of

    trust - management, he has little or none. is supposed

    at least to have none. Then Under the old system the stock of all

    kinds of which the labour of the Convict - Bondsman formed a part, was

    the property of the Purchasing Master — his management of it

    consequently - being for his own use and was of the intrusted

    kind. Under the new system that same stock — that same labour is

    the property of the state — put under the

    management of the Governor — in whose situation it will naturally be

    a point of honour to have nothing to do [+]

    [+] in appearance at least with

    any sort of motive to which any such

    appellation as that of personal interest is wont to be applied

    in common language.
  • Title: [1. Legislative power. none]
    Description: 1.

    Legislative power. none

    created.

    2.

    Cause. Two powers

    were meant to be exercised.

    neither of them

    fit to be named -

    1. Power of amending

    all the transportation

    laws

    3.

    2. Power of legislation

    in a single hand.

    4.

    Pitt was then upon

    his good behaviour

    having lately stood

    his ground against

    the House of Commons

    upon Constitutional

    grounds -

    5

    There was a rage

    for colonizing somewhere

    - this furnished

    a pretence for the

    expence

    6

    To create the necessary

    legislative power the

    only way was to

    create the necessity

    for it by

    7.

    As by the first Pitt

    Lord Camden had been

    done by negligence.

    8

    Evil consequences

    1 st Unconstitutional

    example

    2. Insecurity of the

    Colony.

    9.

    The seditionists if at

    any time they should

    have lawyers among

    them may subvert

    the government without

    incurring any

    legal penalty.

    10

    Regulations

    1 st what legal

    11

    2. what illegal.

    12.

    Cases put of illegal

    regulations for which

    in point of utility

    there may be a

    demand.

    13.

    Capt n Collins not

    considering this

    want of power to

    make regulations

    speaks with surprize

    of the spirit

    of careless independance

    among

    the emancipated

    bondsmen.

    1

    Though the design was

    to prevent the return of

    Convicts, no plan was

    formed for the execution

    of it - neither

    at the outset, nor for years. p.18

    2

    A just one would

    have provided for

    their return of emancipees

    and made it

    as easy as under

    the old system. p.19

    3.

    An unjust one would

    have taken measures

    against the return

    of emancipees from

    the first.

    4

    At first they had

    no plan for prevention

    of the return either

    of emancipees or

    non-emancipees.

    5.

    When they had any

    it was directed as

    much against the

    one as the other.

    6

    and this the legitimate

    object of the establishment

    or not their

    conduct is equally

    indefensible.

    7.

    When they put emancipated

    bondsmen

    under this

    illegal restraint

    they put all freemen

    under the same

    restraint.

    9

    It appears in the

    same document authority (Collins)

    that Convicts who had

    no more than 3 year

    remaining was sent

    out in the design

    of their never returning.

    p.26.

    10

    It was with the

    Penitentiary Act

    of 1799 before them

    the Act so anxious

    to distinguish between

    degrees of punishment

    that they thus confound

    them.

    Though this gives them

    the power (as well as

    1704) they avoided

    it.

    8

    Effect of this event of

    plan

    1. While as yet there was no

    plan formed for preventing

    the return of

    non-expirees, expences

    were provided, by the

    neglect, not accidental

    or wilful, if not speeding

    out the process evidencing

    the lengths of the terms. n.25

    1

    On what ground rests

    the Governor's power over

    the Convicts?

    2.

    Under the Acts the

    transportation must

    be by contract and the

    convict is transferred

    to the use of the

    contractor and his

    Assignees

    3.

    Under this provision

    there is nothing to

    hinder the Contractor

    from assigning the

    Convict to his (the

    convicts') use) unless in

    the Contract he be

    restricted to assign

    him to the Governor.

    4.

    Though a provision to

    this effect should be

    in one Contract yet

    it may be omitted

    in any other.

    5.

    As the transportation

    cannot be performed

    without the intervention

    of a Contract, how can

    it be performed in

    a King's ship .gr.

    the Glatton? not without

    a fiction.

    6.

    In the case of a

    Convict, pardoned on

    condition of transportation

    for life, power is given

    to the Crown to allow

    him to transport

    himself.

    7.

    By this means the

    bondage is pardoned

    without speaking of it.

    8

    Origin of this clause

    unclergyable felonies

    in some instances

    gentlemen's offences.

    9.

    This power not being

    given in the case

    of a clergyable offence

    hence the greater

    criminal has an

    indulgence refused

    to the less By law

    clergyable felons may

    be permitted to buy

    off the bondage (as

    above) if the Crown

    does not oppose it:

    although not the transportation.

    10

    But in the transportation

    to New

    South Wales they

    can not now do

    either.

    11.

    The obscurity and

    uncertainty of the

    fate of the Convicts

    in these important

    particulars under

    such legislation and

    management is a

    sufficient proof of

    its being blameable.

    about

    claiming from trust

    management to contract

    management in the

    case of the Parliamentary

    House.

    Mala fides

    In the case of Cold

    Back Fields prison.

    Parliament orders and

    enquiry and Mr

    Pitt has makes no objection

    to it. Will he ever

    move for the enquiry

    of these abuses &

    if there were any he

    was not the author.