date

1819 Jan y 11 Parl. Reform Bill
1819 Jan y 11

Parl. Reform Bill

Dialogue

Preliminary View

Evils & Remedies

II Remedies

Miselection

Mixture - Balance

4

16

4

To the Tories I think /if I misrecollect not/, belongs the glory of the mixture, to the Whigs that of the balance. The argument invented by each would equally /alike/ meet[?] the

purpose of the other. Both joining in /having/ one common interest, both have one

common object. This common object is that nothing be ever /shall ever be/ done.

Neither can bear to part with /put to hazard/ their seats; the Tories can not bear to

part with their possession, the Whigs with the expectancy, of still better things.

Think of the Saint’s day kept at Newcastle Road and read again Earl Grey, who in the

same breath as for reform[?], for a reform, and for a reform in which nothing shall

be done. Look at the Noble /serving[?]/ Lord who too modest to have principles of his

own, takes up with /as he declares, and gives his support to/ Charles Fox’s

principles: and with their speeches before his eyes in which the departed /hero no

more/ calls out for reform even to the very root of it, declares that he will have

none of it. But the Noble Earl was too well acquainted with the amiable and versatile

aristocrat to look to his speeches for his principles.

In /From/ the form given to /complexion of/ your question, and the smile upon your

countenance, plain enough was it to me /well did I so understand/ that you yourself

were neither accessory nor dupe either to the mixture or to the balance -: it was not

with any such instruments that you yourself have been searching now[?]. It was in

pleasantry, not in earnest that you put them to me. If you are fortunate enough to

number among your friends M r Thomas Little the Younger, what

think you of handing over to him all this matter, for his man to make a duet[?] or an

eclogue out of it? Lord Liverpool who in days of yore was I think the inventor[?] of

the mixture, and the Honourable Thomas Brand who borrowing the balance applied by

Blackstone and every body else to these[?] Lords and Commons applied it for the first

time to the contending interests in the Commons, might be the interlocutors.
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  • Title: [1819 Jan. y 11 Parl Reform Bill]
    Description: 1819 Jan. y 11

    Parl Reform Bill

    Dialogue 1

    {Preliminary View}

    Necessity of Change

    Evils & Remedies

    II Remedies

    Miselection (ad finem)

    Mixture - balance

    1

    13

    1

    Anti-Reformist. Say what you will, no such change, no nor any other change must take

    place. The mixture of professions, army, navy, lawyers, merchants, manufacturers,

    which we see /now serve/ in the house of Commons, forms one of the beautiful features

    of our /the/ matchless Constitution in its present state: the balance of interests,

    the agricultural and the commercial forms /is/ another. {Here you have /Thus you have

    against you/ the united wisdom of the profoundest /deepest-thinking/ politicians on

    both sides. The {argument about /from/ the} mixture comes from the Tories: {that

    about} the balance from the Whigs. What /do you/ have you to say /say you/ to all

    this?}

    Reformist. Words, words, with nothing at the bottom of them. No such mixture is of

    any use. It gives you no information that you could not leave in a better shape

    without it than with it /No information does it give that you would not leave full

    well without as with it/: what would you be the better, if every witness had a seat

    and vote in /on/ the bench from which he is examined? Even his attendance is not so

    much at your command when he belongs to the House as it would be if it did not belong

    to it. If the witness whom there is a use for is not a Member, you will have him when

    his presence is of use /there is a use for him/, and you will not have him when there

    is none. If he is a Member you will have him when he has an interest of his own or of

    a friend to serve: you will not have him if in his eyes it is more for his interest

    or more for his pleasure to be any where else. Supposing the mixture to be of use,

    more or less will depend on the proportions. What is the most proper proportion?

    {these sages of yours did any such question ever enter into their thoughts?} If the

    most proper proportion were /Supposing it/ determined thing In the present state of

    things is there any thing that promotes /to promote/ the realisation

    /exemplification/ of it. Be it what it may, would it be less likely to be realised in

    /under/ the proposed system, or under any other system, than under the existing one?

    [marginal insert:] When a Boroughholder sells[?] his Borough or a seat in it does he

    set himself to enquire how the proportion stands for fear of disturbing it?
  • Title: [1819 June 16 To Erskine Lett]
    Description: 1819 June 16

    To Erskine

    Lett. 7. Whigs Anti Reformists

    §.3. 2. No desire testified

    4

    Well but I think I hear your Lordship saying – (for it is my humble endeavour to pick up and present to Your Lordship that plain sense which Your Lordships eloquence disdains throughout to stoop for) – Well but, (at any rate says /asks/ somebody) what say you to “that noble speech of M r Grey in which, throwing back in the teeth of the apostate Pitt his own declarations, he brings to view in the character of the only means by which the sort of change in question could or can ever be effected resolutions of the people meeting in bodies and to the purpose in question acting upon the prudence of the House. Say if you please that these are not now the sentiments of Earl Grey – it is not the less true that they were then declared to be the sentiments of M r Grey: if in so saying his patriot zeal did really outstep a little the line of moderation and prudence it lies not upon you to object to hear this generous transgression proper or improper this at any rate is what he said, and you even you, is it possible for you to say, how it was possible for him in the zeal of his /ardour of his/ exertions in favour of reform to go further or to say more?”

    No, /Very likely not/ my Lord: nothing at any rate occurrs to be at present as promising to be on that occasion more highly conducive to the there professed object: and yet, to speak the truth and the whole truth at once /to come out with the plain truth at once/, it does not appear to me in any degree probable that in the shape of the Grey of that time this magnanimous /Whig/ leader of the Whigs had any more desire of reform in any shape than what he professes at present: and therefore leaving his sincerity to take care of herself, so far as constancy /regard/ is in question I do myself the honour thus to prove to shew myself his Lordships unbidden /uncalled/ as well as gratuitous advocate.
  • Title: [1819 Mar. 27 To Erskine 1 o]
    Description: 1819 Mar. 27

    To Erskine

    1 o

    Lett. IX Whigs self-condemned antireformists

    Earl Greys change

    1

    “The time is come” (says M r Place +) The time is come when it is more than ever the duty of every man to adopt the recommendation of M r Grey, now Earl Grey, made by him in 1794 – when in his place in the House of Commons, he said, This House will never

    Now if, speaking as Counsel for Your Lordships Noble friend speaking as Counsel for Your Noble friend, Your Lordship should be pleased to say that his Lordship is ready to say, in the “high character of his eloquence – that he never did say so and that he always did say so – that when he said as much, he did not mean as much that he sees the matter at present in the same light and in the opposite light – that he is the same man as ever, being like Your Lordship’s noble [*]“self devoted as much as ever to a Reform in Parliament – if such be the account given by your[?] Your Lordship of “the highest sense of honour” of this Colleague of your Lordship this Noble leader and Defender of the Whigs – whatever contradiction you may receive from the rough[?] pen of M r Place, you shall receive none from mine.

    The immutability of his changeableness is known to every body: but the reason of it – any thing like the shadow of an attempt to produce a reason – are yet to come.

    {And to see that one Whig is to see all.}

    + Reply p 31

    [*] p. 14